Nobody should feel guilty about their country's (or their family's) past, amirite?

Yes, but as a German, I do think that it our task to learn from the past and do our best to make sure that it doesn't repeat itself.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

. German government voting to ban a political party rife with fascism is how you learn from mistakes, and that comes from guilt that keeps you focused on what happens when you aren't. I absolutely agree it is your duty.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Any country is free to ban organisations that threaten their constitution. The German Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution (Verfassungsschutz) is meticulously examining if the AfD is a danger to our constitution. If this is the case, and only then, it would only be logical to ban them.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

True but that's expected of everybody educated in history.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

That doesn't mean you still shouldn't be aware of the past and actively doing your part to not repeat it lol. Otherwise known as basic human decency

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Acknowledging is different than groveling or paying someone for something they didn't experience.

by No_Repeat 4 days ago

I didn't apologize. I said that we shouöd learn from history.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Nothing wrong with that.

by No_Repeat 4 days ago

Blaming the re emergence of fascism on those darn brown people instead of the fascists, huh?

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Learn yes, apologize no.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

This is a popular opinion that most people keep to themselves.

by Admirable_Risk 4 days ago

How about acknowledging that the life that you're living is as a result of the ancestors pillaging and enslaving other people? And acknowledging that the people living in those countries had a ton of resources and manpower stolen from them that might have affected how much development their countries might have achieved until now? Maybe instead of being satisfied with just now owning slaves you could look into how to help those poorer countries?

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Well, I'm already doing that, lol. But personally I think we should all be doing what we can to make the world a better place. So for me, I like to look for the little things and the bigger things I can do every day to contribute.

by Perfect_Respond_4390 4 days ago

Sure, but then I guess I'm confused by your statement. Are you doing those little things to make the world a better place because A). Your ancestors (hypothetically) owned slaves. Or B). You're not an asshole.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

That's the real problem. People want to deny what happens or paper over it because it breaks down the myths of the state and can cause a revaluation of national identity. For instance, the United States was built on genocide and abject cruelty; it's only natural to ask how anything good can come from that. Once you start questioning the intrinsically good intentions of the state, you start to question the power structures of the state and the people who occupy and maintain those power structures—and you realize that, while I many not be personally culpable, the is a direct line of succession from the perpetrators of slavery and the genocide, to the people who hold power today; there is an unbroken chain of greed and self-righteousness. The victims change, but the abuse continues. Once enough people get there, the wheel, as they say, is in danger of being broken.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

And it's killing us

by Anonymous 4 days ago

By the same measure folk shouldn't boast about or claim the achievements of their families past as well. People who live off the glory of their family name without having achieved anything themselves are just as bad

by No-Message8107 4 days ago

I think this has generally been the common view until the last half decade or so

by Anonymous 4 days ago

It's still very much the common view.

by Mean_Charity7640 4 days ago

I'm so terribly sorry that my country was historically better at war than yours. 😢

by Anonymous 4 days ago

that's it

by Anonymous 4 days ago

I don't. Why would I feel guilty? Makes no sense. lmao.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Agreed. For the most part this is accepted. Germany and Japan, for example, haven't recently been expected to apologise for or continue accounting for the atrocities of WW2 (for a good while now, it's considered hateful to bring it up)… even though that's far more recent than, say, the slave trade.

by brayanpfeffer 4 days ago

although i agree, korea and japan have a very longstanding diplomatic problem over japan refusing to apologize and admit to atrocities commited against their people during WWII, and germany does everything in its power to ban any mention of WWII germany that isn't negative (note that i'm not saying they should be portraying it positively), so they kinda have been expected to apologize for it in some respects

by Complex-Armadillo 4 days ago

And it's recently history. Japan is more problematic, agreed, my perspective being that of a westerner, but Germany have at least tried (successfully) to distance themselves from WW2. Perhaps this is the difference: I can yell ‘what about the slaves?' to a Brit. If I yell ‘what about the Jews?' to a German, that's a hate crime.

by brayanpfeffer 4 days ago

whenever it benefits them more than guilt tripping other people in an attempt to leverage something?

by ImprovementTop 4 days ago

Agreed. People will probably lambast me, but discussions around how (as a result of slavery) there's still a huge amount of systemic racism in our culture, are why people feel its reasonable to keep dragging it up. As someone who isn't white, I believe strongly most issues of race are not systemic. It's class divide. The black population isn't always on the end of the boot because it's black, it's because these tend to be poorer neighbourhoods. Poor neighbourhoods see higher crime rates and more gang culture, and as a result they get lent on harder. It's the same for anyone who's white, Mexican and Asian growing up in the same areas; it's not ‘a black problem', it's a wealth problem. History put Nancy black people where they are, but it's not what keeps them there. It comes down to social mobility, not the colour of your skin.

by brayanpfeffer 4 days ago

You do realize slavery lasted longer than the slave trade and it was over 12 million Africans taken by force right?

by Acceptable-Rip-397 4 days ago

Do people actually feel guilty about stuff like this?

by Acceptable-Owl 4 days ago

I don't know, it's mainly in academic circles people like to wear metaphorical hairshirts for clout

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Only the white man burden type white supremacists. They tend to talk about white privilege these days

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Being ashamed is performative. And more importantly apologizing is just words, it doesn't do anything, at most it creates awareness. The important thing is to ask yourself whether some of the things that happened in the past are still having aftereffects today, and if so how do we address it.

by alysson93 4 days ago

More people could have benefitted from hearing this in 2020

by Padbergluella 4 days ago

I agree with your opinion. But people tend to shame you because of the country. Many foreigners online refused to continue talking to me because I'm from Russia.

by Effective-Hand 4 days ago

Yeah it literally doesn't make sense. Original sin is brain dead

by Anonymous 4 days ago

It's a gesture that's ultimately meaningless. What does apologizing for something in the distant past do to make anyone's life better in the present day? The answer is usually nothing.

by Ok-Commission-8101 4 days ago

Contrary to what you hear on reactionary trumper media , leftists are absolutely uninterested in someone's expression of personal guilt for historical wrongs committed before they were born. We actually view that as counterproductive to social justice goals. This is an old right wing strawman

by Sweaty-Enthusiasm 4 days ago

It's not about guilt but recognizing that even if I personally didn't participate I still reap benefits from certain actions my country did before I was alive. Maybe I am even culpable for holding unto a status quo based on that past that still disadvantages the same people. It's not about feeling bad, but recognizing that if you inherit the good, you inherit the bad and it becomes your responsibilty to do better. Any form of patriotism that excludes responsibilty for the bad is pretty shallow and also quite dangerous.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Multiculturalism

by Anonymous 4 days ago

I think it's important to remember that history has lasting impacts that still affect people today. Maybe feeling guilty isn't helpful, but it's important to be aware of the privileges you are awarded by being the descendants of certain people. For instance white people in America (the only place I can speak on with experience) inherently have a better chance at success compared to black/Hispanic Americans because in the past racist people made laws that are still in place today.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Maybe if you come from a rich white family. However if you are raised "trailer trash" and now you want to make something for yourself you have less advantages than minorities. For example because you're white you don't qualify for AS MANY scholarships. While yes there are some its increasing difficult to obtain them due to lack of knowledge how and bias towards helping whites over minorities.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

I mostly agree with you. The conversation is steering more towards race since op specifically mentioned countries, but economic class is important too. No one would disagree that being born rich is a huge advantage. Privilege comes in many forms

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Yeah the issue is class and should be about nothing else.

by theodore87 4 days ago

This is a good point I wasn't thinking about. Its crazy how much the view on "different" white people has changed in just 2-3 generations.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Only in an academic sense, you shouldn't feel any personal guilt about anything you didn't do

by Anonymous 4 days ago

you shouldn't feel any personal guilt about anything you didn't do And who are the people saying you should? This is supposed to be an unpopular opinion so it is your view that most people believe people should feel personal guilt for the crimes of their forebears? I've certainly seen people claim that others want them to do that, but I don't think I've ever seen an actual statement to that effect, let alone seen that as the general consensus.

by Tommieyundt 4 days ago

I'm not saying you should feel personal guilt, but being aware of your privilege in day to day life can help you see someone else's perspective

by Anonymous 4 days ago

You can perfectly see that without framing what you have as privilege.

by Choice_Newspaper_609 4 days ago

But people do have privileges? It doesn't like make you a bad person to have a leg up in life. I come from an upper middle class family, that's a privilege. If you can't acknowledge that you've just gotten plain lucky with some hands in life, I think it reveals a lot of insecurity.

by Delicious_Working868 4 days ago

You are right, what is problematic is the rhetoric that make it seems like people need to renounce to their privileges, the don't and they shouldn't

by Choice_Newspaper_609 4 days ago

What does that mean practically?

by Choice_Newspaper_609 4 days ago

I feel like you're arguing against imaginary people, cause what would it even mean to "renounce" your privileges? Who has said that? Do they have any organizational power?

by Delicious_Working868 4 days ago

That's because the discourse is too generic and almost only idealistic, everyone reads into that what he wants, my point is that what you call privilege is rarely something objectively quantifiable.

by Choice_Newspaper_609 4 days ago

I'm not quite sure I'm picking up what you're putting down on the first part. However I do agree that most privileges are hard to quantify, but the most IMPACTFUL one (how much money your family has) is very easy to quantify.

by Delicious_Working868 4 days ago

It is? How? Can you make an example?

by Choice_Newspaper_609 4 days ago

Privilege is not a bad thing. You DO have privileges. Everyone does. Everyone also has certain disadvantages. It's our combination of our unique privileges and disadvantages that help make up our experiences. Privilege is not something to be ashamed of. Instead, try to figure out ways to share your privileges so that you can help others benefit too!

by Perfect_Respond_4390 4 days ago

This way of seeing it I can agree with.

by Choice_Newspaper_609 4 days ago

I don't feel guilty, I feel disgusted. And in my case, feel emboldened to help advocate for marginalized people such as black people who are still suffering the consequences of systemic racism. I can't just hand wave the past, especially slavery, when it's directly impacting black people to this day.

by Hoyt56 4 days ago

"I can't just hand wave the past, especially slavery..." you can, you just choose not to, and you're wasting your energy and time.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Yes, you can, you choose not to, and the only person that affects is you.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

That's your assumption tho, you wouldn't know how thing would have gone if history was different, you are just choosing a way thing would have gone that benefit your biases.

by Choice_Newspaper_609 4 days ago

Sometimes, however, one might benefit from the bad things one's country or family did. And that benefit may be at the expense of others.

by Whiteena 4 days ago

go back far enough and every person on earth will find something terrible that an ancestor did. You can't do anything about, hence it's a waste of energy.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

The problem is that no matter how you think you can be sure that something caused something else you can't be sure because the dynamics at play are too complex, you are just assuming.

by Choice_Newspaper_609 4 days ago

So one of the countries people like to blame as Britain The problem is everyone overwhelmingly benefits from the existence of the British empire Everyone benefits from electricity

by Anonymous 4 days ago

You shouldn't feel personally culpable about it, but you definitely should feel bad in the general sense. Look at all the people who outright celebrate the confederacy as "part of our culture and history" when it was a big black mark on our history. I don't feel personally responsible for the confederacy and slavery in general, but I feel bad that it happened and I feel real bad about how many people idolize it.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

The very furthest anyone should go is regret

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Maybe this is a cultural thing, but I can't imagine feeling guilt for something I didn't do and I don't know anyone who does. There is, however, a difference between feeling guilty/personally doing something wrong and being held accountable as an entity. For example slavery. I did not hold slaves and i did not sell people. So i do not feel guilty for slavery. But my country did participate in slavery and that did lead to the fact that people of color are still being left behind economically. Years of racism have left a mark. So while we are not guilty, we should be held accountable for what our country did and should be the ones responsible to fix what our ancestors caused.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

It is one thing to not feel guilt it is another thing to not recognize these things occurred or to feel like you don't need to do anything to correct issues which occurred today due to past atrocities. It is like buying a business and refusing to fix any issues you didn't create bc it isn't your fault and expecting it to run fine.

by Expensive-Yak6942 4 days ago

I think it depends. If you want to be nationalistic, or show pride in your nation and its history in a "we did that!" sort of way, you have to take the good with the bad. Like, you can't take ownership of the revolutionary war but then not take ownership of the trail of tears. That's how history gets rewritten. If you don't care either way though, you shouldnt be held responsible.

by Thin-Buy 4 days ago

I'm not with this idea entirely. I want to agree but I feel like this is a way for people to try to get out of feeling any responsibility or duty for the things their relatives or community could have done to others in the past. You should feel a responsibility to make something right that your relatives made wrong, specifically if those wrong actions still have lasting effects on that same community or family today.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

I believe this extend to current events as well. It's not like a common citizen can influence their government or standing behind all their decisions. Take Israelis for instance. Why should they all be blamed for whatever you think their government is doing wrong?

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Depends. If the country has dealt with its history, there is no reason to be ashamed. If you still deny the crap you have spouted, shame is appropriate

by Odessakoelpin 4 days ago

you're not going to feel guilty anyway if you deny that something happened, I'm talking specifically about instances where the past is universally accepted. There's nothing wrong with a German saying they feel no guilt about the Third Reich's crimes, for example.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

I agree. My issue is when it's taken up to 11 and more or less used to pretend like it didn't happen. Japan's infamous for whitewashing its crimes when it teaches history, and Yasukuni Shrine is infamous in its own right. Meanwhile here in the states it's just another culture war issue, because apparently acknowledging that your Confederate sympathizing ancestor from the 1860s was a bad person during a history lesson in school is somehow teaching white children to hate themselves. So therefore let's just ban talking about that. Don't blame yourself for what other people did. But don't pretend that those other people didn't do those things to protect your ego, either.

by reed04 4 days ago

I think you see apologies as shameful, whereas they can also be a way to grow as a people or culture.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

It is shameful when you're apologising for something that isn't your fault. It's also quite embarrassing to witness.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

It would only be the hallmark of a sociopath if you were actually guilty of anything and not just pretending to be.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

I agree to an extent, but at least in my experience, the people who are most vocal about this kind of thing are also the type to downplay these types of atrocities as if they weren't that big of a deal, which I also don't support

by Anonymous 4 days ago

I think the opposite is true as well, and nobody should be proud about their country's past unless they directly contributed to it somehow.

by Lazy_Arachnid4651 4 days ago

I don't disagree but by the same token we can't take pride in it either.

by omarimckenzie 4 days ago

It's not about feeling guilty, but about being aware of your past and recognizing that your current situation or (lack of) privilege may be a product of what happened before.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

At personal level I think you are right. At country level it's different. A country recognizing that they did something bad to another country could greatly improve the relationship between the two countries. Here in Mexico there's plenty of people who still keep a grudge for what happened hundreds of years ago with Spain. A simple statement from Spain just acknowledging that unfortunate things happened long ago, not even apologizing, just recognizing it, would go a long way to improve the relationship … personally I don't get it, since I didn't grow up here, but I know plenty of people who feel that way.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

I completely agree, as long as we also agree that by that same token nobody should feel proud of it either.

by CertainJournalist 4 days ago

Yep. Pretty much every group / nationality has been a victim at some point. Besides that, if you consider yourself a victim that mindset will perpetuate your perception into your reality..

by Anonymous 4 days ago

Then you shouldn't feel pride in it either.

by Anonymous 4 days ago

I don't. I'm only proud of myself and my family.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

how does that affect how you feel about the past?

by Anonymous 3 days ago

I don't disagree that feeling guilty for someone else's wrongs is useless, but I will say I have seen a lot of people use this mindset to completely disregard systemic issues that arise directly from the past.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Right.

by Willing_Jackfruit 3 days ago

I'm not even white! And my tax dollars go to funding indigenous leaders' luxury lifestyle instead of needed healthcare. Also the money doesn't even go to the indigenous people.

by Proof-Fun9478 3 days ago

I mean yes their people suffered genocide

by Anonymous 3 days ago

"Come to Canada..." ugh, no thanks.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

This is only one of many issues turning our country into a member of the third world

by Vegetable_Group 3 days ago

what about those reparation seeking grifters?

by Shoddy-Exercise 3 days ago

It's the same as if your grandfather committed a murder. No one in their right mind would blame the grand child or insinuate that they need to make reparations for their grandfathers crime. So why should it be any different in this scenario? Yet people still blame others for the crime of their great great great great great great great great great grandfather

by Anonymous 3 days ago

100% this is the correct take

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Its not about feeling guilty. Its about recognizing that there are levels of privilege in the world and acting accordingly. No one is saying all white men have it easy, but a white man has it much easier than a minority woman all other things being equal.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

I could see where you were going with this before I even finished reading. No one wants an apology for slavery, all we want is for it to be acknowledged as something that still has residual, generational effects on black people.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Terrible that they had to deal with that. Individuals of groups do not all suffer equally. Who gets to decide who's suffering is worse? This is the weirdest pissing pity contest I have ever seen.

by No_Repeat 3 days ago

Colonialism saved most places. I know people don't like it's the truth

by Anonymous 3 days ago

I agree, but also I am aware that old systems of oppression still benefit me as a white person in North America. I'm Polish, I didn't do anything to black or indigenous people. But the system we all live in still gives me advantages where they may not.

by mariahdaugherty 3 days ago

Hell yeah brother, white power, we shouldn't be ashamed of all of the colonizing, raping, and pillaging, and genocide... /s

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago

Correct, you shouldn't feel guilty about something you're not guilty of.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Do you think you should feel pride in something you didn't accomplish, like your country's historical successes?

by Zealousideal-Map8597 3 days ago

So america shouldn't care about genociding native Americans and slavery? Even though a bunch of maga types seem to still support it?

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago

Tell me which American you think should feel guilty about those things.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Did you do those things? If your brother steals a car do you pay for the car and go to jail with him? Get real.

by No_Repeat 3 days ago

Fr lmao, idk if the dude above is virtue signaling or just really out of touch, but it's ridiculous that this is even a debate

by Anonymous 3 days ago

It's always the victims of their own self pity. They don't feel bad enough for themselves they need complete strangers to feel bad too. People that owe them nothing should feel bad too.

by No_Repeat 3 days ago

If you support the kkk, do you support everything they have done too?

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago

Who supports the KKK?

by No_Repeat 3 days ago

Answer the question?

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago

Because supporting the kkk is shameful. So no one announces it publicly. It doesn't mean that they don't exist. Lmao what a joke.

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago

That isnt a question.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

A question mark indicates a question.

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago

It also indicated stupidity.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

At least I can recognize a question mark.

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago

Cant recognize a point being made, that's for sure.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

You shouldn't feel ashamed. You should feel bad that it happened, I mean I'm not even white and I feel bad that it happened, but you absolutely should not feel ashamed for something you didn't do.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Being ashamed is the only path to amending things. No shame is a Maga thing.

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago

You are making the most absurd blanket statements lmao, you can choose to feel ashamed about something you never did, but that is ridiculous. Being self aware and acknowledging your privileges goes just as far.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

"You people" ?? Just out of curiosity what demographic are you looping me in with lmao

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Take a wild guess.

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago

That's an insane assumption to make lmao, and an incorrect one too. I'm also not religious, not a republican, and as I mentioned earlier, not white.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

I don't care.

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago

Make assumptions about people, and when corrected reply with "I don't care". What exactly was ur plan here lmao

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Also that's another blanket statement that's just ur opinion "shame is what keeps our society…." "Shame is the only way" "shame is a maga thing" Just because you believe these things does not make them true, do you atleast care to explain them?

by Anonymous 3 days ago

A little shame is healthy. Move along.

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago

Once again not caring to explain why that's the case. How old are you dude? Lmao, you're beginning to sound like the very people you accused me of supporting

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Why should you feel ASHAMED of something you didn't do and had no hand in doing/creating? You should feel bad that it happened, yes. Because it's horrible. But definitely not SHAME.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Shame is a motivator to fix things. No shame is what the religious do, and i find that to be morally wrong.

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago

You're joking, right? Most religions are ROOTED in shame. You don't need shame or guilt to fix anything, just the ability to recognize right from wrong and being able to admit what is wrong.

by Anonymous 3 days ago

Shame about irrational fear that a sky daddy is watching you play with your pp. The religious have no shame, this is why we have a pedo as president.

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago

Last time I checked, I haven't done any colonising, raping, pillaging or genocide. I'll have to check my diary, but I think I've got some pillaging and genocide booked in for next week. Saving the colonising until after Christmas.

by Downtown_Way 3 days ago

Your ancestors did, recently too. I get you're heartless and don't care.

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago

I really don't care. Cry about it.

by Downtown_Way 3 days ago

A small dose of guilt is healthy. You are wrong.

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago

I think you're confusing guilt for feeling bad. Guilt implies that you had some preventable sway in the event. Feeling bad just means you express empathy and support for people who were victims by the event. I think feeling empathy and support for others who were the victims is healthy. Feeling guilt for something you are in no way guilty of is not.

by This-Belt 3 days ago

Guilt is good. Your lack of emotional range is not my problem

by Narrow_Day 3 days ago